One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a friend fly his
plane. Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the plane has dual
controls, his friend is an adult, but no license. But I have to admit,
although I don't know of any specific prohibition on this, I'm not sure
if I should tell him its legal or not (I told him I'd research it and
get back to him. In the meantime he is supposed to read the FARS and
see if he can find out for himself).

Anyone know for sure?

> One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a friend fly his
> plane.

For part 91 light plane operations, there is no rule against it. It is
legal. You remain PIC and you remain responsible for the safety of the
flight.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

A pilot with a certificate, other than a student pilot
certificate, may carry passengers. A student pilot may not
carry passengers, they must fly dual or solo.
But if a pilot wants, they may allow any person to handle
the controls, but then neither may log that time.

He should be aware that the insurance company object and he
should be careful about conditions.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a friend
fly his
| plane. Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the
plane has dual
| controls, his friend is an adult, but no license. But I
have to admit,
| although I don't know of any specific prohibition on this,
I'm not sure
| if I should tell him its legal or not (I told him I'd
research it and
| get back to him. In the meantime he is supposed to read
the FARS and
| see if he can find out for himself).
|
| Anyone know for sure?
|

Doug wrote:

> One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a friend fly his
> plane. Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the plane has dual
> controls, his friend is an adult, but no license. But I have to admit,
> although I don't know of any specific prohibition on this, I'm not sure
> if I should tell him its legal or not (I told him I'd research it and
> get back to him. In the meantime he is supposed to read the FARS and
> see if he can find out for himself).
>
> Anyone know for sure?
>

Last I knew, primary students couldn't carry passengers. If your
student is an instrument student with a private license (I'm assuming
this is a reasonably assumption given this ng), then sure he can let a
friend handle the controls.

Matt

If the student has a private certificate, its legal. If your student is
a student pilot, it is not legal.

When I said student was legal PIC, guess I should have said student
had Private Pilot and all the ratings/signoffs to be PIC in this
airplane.

So yes, I guess he's legal so far as the FAA.

> But if a pilot wants, they may allow any person to handle
> the controls, but then neither may log that time.

As I understand it, the person ACTING as Pilot In Command may always log the
time (as total time and PIC time), whether that person is sole manipulator
of the flight controls or not. More than one person can certainly log PIC
time, but I can't think of a circumstance when nobody can log PIC time.

-Mike

>> As I understand it, the person ACTING as Pilot In Command may always log the
>> time (as total time and PIC time), whether that person is sole manipulator
>> of the flight controls or not.

That is my understanding as well. The PIC is someone how accepts
responsibility for the safety of the flight, whether he/she is
manipulating the controls or not.

Best Regards,
Todd

I meant "who", not "how"... Damn fat fingers!!! ;-)

In a previous article, "Doug" > said:
>One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a friend fly his
>plane. Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the plane has dual

When you're a legally certificated and medicalled pilot, and you let your
friends or family members take the controls, they are just a meat-based
autopilot. You're still PIC, and it's no different than if you'd turned
on George.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - spaf (1992)

A private or commercial pilot may only log PIC time when
they are the sole manipulator of the controls [that includes
the autopilot controls], it is possible that neither pilot
can log any of the flight time. Only a CFI or an ATP [in a
121 or 135 operation] may log PIC time when they are not
actual operating the controls.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Mike Murdock" > wrote in message
...
|> But if a pilot wants, they may allow any person to handle
| > the controls, but then neither may log that time.
|
| As I understand it, the person ACTING as Pilot In Command
may always log the
| time (as total time and PIC time), whether that person is
sole manipulator
| of the flight controls or not. More than one person can
certainly log PIC
| time, but I can't think of a circumstance when nobody can
log PIC time.
|
| -Mike
|
|

The person acting as PIC may not be able to log that time
unless they qualify under some regulation. Someone is
always PIC, but PIC time does not always have to be logged
on any particular flight.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in
message
oups.com...
| >> As I understand it, the person ACTING as Pilot In
Command may always log the
| >> time (as total time and PIC time), whether that person
is sole manipulator
| >> of the flight controls or not.
|
| That is my understanding as well. The PIC is someone how
accepts
| responsibility for the safety of the flight, whether
he/she is
| manipulating the controls or not.
|
| Best Regards,
| Todd
|

You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or not] is
flying if you are a CFI. An ATP may log PIC when that
authority was assigned by the dispatcher for a 135 or 121
flight. In a 121 long haul flight, the PIC can log that
time even while asleep in the bunk. Further, an ATP may
give and log instruction in 121 and 135 operations that
require an ATP for the pilot.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm





"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
| In a previous article, "Doug"
> said:
| >One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a
friend fly his
| >plane. Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the
plane has dual
|
| When you're a legally certificated and medicalled pilot,
and you let your
| friends or family members take the controls, they are just
a meat-based
| autopilot. You're still PIC, and it's no different than
if you'd turned
| on George.
|
| --
| Paul Tomblin >
http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
| "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with
diarrhea -- massive,
| difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a
source of mind-
| boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect
t." - spaf (1992)

>> You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or not] is
>> flying if you are a CFI.

(apologies if this is a dupe)
What about a safety pilot?

>> You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or not] is
>> flying if you are a CFI

What about a safety pilot?

In a previous article, "Jim Macklin" > said:
>You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or not] is
>flying if you are a CFI. An ATP may log PIC when that

Do you log time when the autopilot is engaged?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"I'm cruising down the Information Superhighway in high gear, surfing the
waves of the Digital Ocean, exploring the uncharted regions of Cyberspace.
Actually I'm sitting on my butt staring at a computer screen."

> As I understand it, the person ACTING as Pilot In Command may always log the
> time (as total time and PIC time), whether that person is sole manipulator
> of the flight controls or not.

I have not seen where this is so. I have seen that one may log as PIC
time ONLY that time in which... one is acting as PIC in a situation
where MORE THAN ONE PILOT IS NEEDED. I've seen posted here a letter
from the FAA which appears to attempt to indicate that any time where
one is acting as PIC is loggable as PIC, but the logic in the letter
does not in fact succeed to indicate that.

Nonetheless, I count organic autopilots as flight controls, and log the
time.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jim Macklin > wrote:
>You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or not] is
>flying if you are a CFI. An ATP may log PIC when that
>authority was assigned by the dispatcher for a 135 or 121
>flight. In a 121 long haul flight, the PIC can log that
>time even while asleep in the bunk. Further, an ATP may
>give and log instruction in 121 and 135 operations that
>require an ATP for the pilot.

Given the situation:
IFR student under the hood on a VFR day,
any other rated pilot as safety pilot,
I thought the safety pilot could log PIC...?

Another OWT?

> Given the situation:
> IFR student under the hood on a VFR day,
> any other rated pilot as safety pilot,
> I thought the safety pilot could log PIC...?
>
> Another OWT?

Half so.

This situation is one in which two the safety pilot is a required
crewmember. If the safety pilot is =also= acting as pilot in command,
then he or she may log PIC time (during the VFR conditions while the PF
is under the hood) under 61.51(e)(1)(iii). If the safety pilot is not
acting as pilot in command, then he or she may log SIC time.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Mike Murdock > wrote:
: > But if a pilot wants, they may allow any person to handle
: > the controls, but then neither may log that time.

: As I understand it, the person ACTING as Pilot In Command may always log the
: time (as total time and PIC time), whether that person is sole manipulator
: of the flight controls or not. More than one person can certainly log PIC
: time, but I can't think of a circumstance when nobody can log PIC time.

That is most certainly *NOT* my interpretation up until a few days ago. There
are some inconsistencies between the regulations (FAR 61.51) and the letter of the
FAA from 1977:
http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/msgs//11672.html

I used to think that since there is a clear distinction between acting as PIC
and logging PIC time in the FARs, that there was no way the acting PIC can log PIC
time if a non-pilot was manipulating the controls. One could make the argument that
flipping on an autopilot is "manipulating the controls," but if the FARs say that if
someone else is manipulating the controls, the acting PIC cannot log PIC time.
Furthermore, the non-pilot manipulating the controls cannot log the time since they do
not have a category/class rating. If that person *does* have a category/class rating
they can log the time even though they cannot act as PIC (e.g. no medical, no BFR,
no complex endorsement, etc)

Where it gets funky is what the poster in
http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/msgs//11672.html suggests. The "broad-painted brush"
of the official FAA letter says:
"Also, a pilot, rated in category and class (e.g. airplane single-engine) could, as
the pilot who "Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of
the flight" log PIC time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was actually
manipulating the controls of the aircraft." As the poster surmised, one could take
that to the conclusion that a non-complex-endorsed (but category/class-rated) pilot
could log PIC time for manipulating the controls of a complex aircraft AND the
complex-endorsed pilot acting as PIC.

Crap... I *thought* I understood this whole thing. If it weren't for the
letter, letting grandma or Fido fly means (according to the literal FARs) that
*nobody* can log PIC.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

> wrote in message
...
> Mike Murdock > wrote:
> : > But if a pilot wants, they may allow any person to handle
> : > the controls, but then neither may log that time.
>
> : As I understand it, the person ACTING as Pilot In Command may always log
> the
> : time (as total time and PIC time), whether that person is sole
> manipulator
> : of the flight controls or not. More than one person can certainly log
> PIC
> : time, but I can't think of a circumstance when nobody can log PIC time.
>
> That is most certainly *NOT* my interpretation up until a few days ago.
> There
> are some inconsistencies between the regulations (FAR 61.51) and the
> letter of the
> FAA from 1977:
> http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/msgs//11672.html
>
> I used to think that since there is a clear distinction between acting as
> PIC
> and logging PIC time in the FARs, that there was no way the acting PIC can
> log PIC
> time if a non-pilot was manipulating the controls.
>
> Crap... I *thought* I understood this whole thing. If it weren't for the
> letter, letting grandma or Fido fly means (according to the literal FARs)
> that
> *nobody* can log PIC.

You've got it right. The FAA's legal opinion contradicts 61.51e. But at
least the error is in our favor--that is, it removes a restriction rather
than imposing one.

--Gary

Safety pilot should log SIC, he is a required crewmember,
but is not sole manipulator or PIC.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in
message
oups.com...
| >> You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or
not] is
| >> flying if you are a CFI
|
| What about a safety pilot?
|

I'd say he is SIC


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin > wrote:
| >You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or not]
is
| >flying if you are a CFI. An ATP may log PIC when that
| >authority was assigned by the dispatcher for a 135 or 121
| >flight. In a 121 long haul flight, the PIC can log that
| >time even while asleep in the bunk. Further, an ATP may
| >give and log instruction in 121 and 135 operations that
| >require an ATP for the pilot.
|
| Given the situation:
| IFR student under the hood on a VFR day,
| any other rated pilot as safety pilot,
| I thought the safety pilot could log PIC...?
|
| Another OWT?
|

Why bring up the subject of logging PIC? The question was about acting
PIC. They are two separate topics.


Jim Macklin wrote:
> You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or not] is
> flying if you are a CFI. An ATP may log PIC when that
> authority was assigned by the dispatcher for a 135 or 121
> flight. In a 121 long haul flight, the PIC can log that
> time even while asleep in the bunk. Further, an ATP may
> give and log instruction in 121 and 135 operations that
> require an ATP for the pilot.
>
>
> --
> James H. Macklin
> ATP,CFI,A&P
>
> --
> The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
> But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
> some support
> http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
>
>
>
>
>
> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> | In a previous article, "Doug"
> > said:
> | >One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a
> friend fly his
> | >plane. Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the
> plane has dual
> |
> | When you're a legally certificated and medicalled pilot,
> and you let your
> | friends or family members take the controls, they are just
> a meat-based
> | autopilot. You're still PIC, and it's no different than
> if you'd turned
> | on George.
> |
> | --
> | Paul Tomblin >
> http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> | "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with
> diarrhea -- massive,
> | difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a
> source of mind-
> | boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect
> t." - spaf (1992)

Because the non-CFI letting his buddy fly might log the time
and that error might come back and bite him.

Just trying to be thorough.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|
| Why bring up the subject of logging PIC? The question was
about acting
| PIC. They are two separate topics.
|
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or
not] is
| > flying if you are a CFI. An ATP may log PIC when that
| > authority was assigned by the dispatcher for a 135 or
121
| > flight. In a 121 long haul flight, the PIC can log that
| > time even while asleep in the bunk. Further, an ATP may
| > give and log instruction in 121 and 135 operations that
| > require an ATP for the pilot.
| >
| >
| > --
| > James H. Macklin
| > ATP,CFI,A&P
| >
| > --
| > The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
| > But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
| > some support
| > http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| > "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in
message
| > ...
| > | In a previous article, "Doug"
| > > said:
| > | >One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a
| > friend fly his
| > | >plane. Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and
the
| > plane has dual
| > |
| > | When you're a legally certificated and medicalled
pilot,
| > and you let your
| > | friends or family members take the controls, they are
just
| > a meat-based
| > | autopilot. You're still PIC, and it's no different
than
| > if you'd turned
| > | on George.
| > |
| > | --
| > | Paul Tomblin >
| > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
| > | "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with
| > diarrhea -- massive,
| > | difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining,
and a
| > source of mind-
| > | boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect
| > t." - spaf (1992)
|

> Safety pilot should log SIC, he is a required crewmember,
> but is not sole manipulator or PIC.

Safety pilot could be PIC if they so agree beforehand.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

True, but it should be agreed to. A rental aircraft renter
or the owner would be default PIC in the eyes of an outsider
looking at the flight.

But, a non pilot cannot be a safety pilot, even if they can
look outside for obstructions and other airplanes.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Jose" > wrote in message
t...
|> Safety pilot should log SIC, he is a required crewmember,
| > but is not sole manipulator or PIC.
|
| Safety pilot could be PIC if they so agree beforehand.
|
| Jose
| --
| You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose
whom to love.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

The FAA has said the safety pilot can log PIC if he is also serving as
PIC, your opinion not withstanding.

-Robet

Yes, but with only private or commercial pilots on the
airplane [not CFI] only one can be PIC, although if the CP
PIC /safety pilot was logging PIC and the other CP/PP under
the hood was logging sole manipulator PIC, a legal option.
But these conditions should be decided before flight.

I think that the logging of SIC for a person who is clearly
acting as a safety pilot/SIC is a more justifiable option.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



--
Merry Christmas
Have a Safe and Happy New Year
Live Long and Prosper
Jim Macklin
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| The FAA has said the safety pilot can log PIC if he is
also serving as
| PIC, your opinion not withstanding.
|
| -Robet
|

That's clearly not true. Two private pilots can log PIC at the same
time. Pilot #1 is sole manipulator of the controls (61.51(e)(i). Pilot
#2 is a required crew member serving as PIC 61.51(e)(iii).

Reference. FAA 61 FAQ...
ANSWER: Ref. § 61.113(a) and § 61.51(e)(iii); Yes, the Private Pilot
who is serving as a safety pilot and is acting as the PIC may log the
time as PIC flight time. And yes, that Private Pilot may use that PIC
flight time for the furtherance of a pilot certificate and rating under
Part 61. And no, that Private Pilot is not ". . . . carrying
passengers or property for compensation or hire;" nor is that Private
Pilot acting as a pilot in command ". . . for compensation or hire, .
.. . ." when he serves as a safety pilot. In accordance with
§91.109(b)(1), it permits a person who holds a Private Pilot
Certificate with a category and class rating appropriate to the
aircraft being flown to serve as a safety pilot.

And this answer has been reviewed by the FAA's Washington HQ Chief
Counsel Office (AGC-240), and they have agreed with this answer.
{Q&A-273}

My experimental is a 2-place, and my non-pilot wife is my passenger
almost all the time. Since I'm in an age group that experiences occasional,
although rare, heart attacks and strokes etc., I'm teaching my wife how not
only how to control the airplane, but how to use the nav radios so she can
get back down safely in case I become incapacitated. I am not a certified
instructor.
During all this, however, I remain as PIC so there is absolutely no
prohibition against what I'm doing. My wife has no aspirations to get a
pilot's license so endorsements are a non-issue, only being able to fly,
navigate, and land the airplane.

Terry

"Jose" > wrote in message
t...
>> One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a friend fly his
>> plane.
>
> For part 91 light plane operations, there is no rule against it. It is
> legal. You remain PIC and you remain responsible for the safety of the
> flight.
>
> Jose
> --
> You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Doug" > writes:
> One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a friend fly his plane.
> Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the plane has dual controls,
> his friend is an adult, but no license.
>
> Anyone know for sure?

His friend could be a golden retriever without a license
and it would still be legal. Dual controls are only required if
your friend is a CFI and the dog is receiving flight instruction.

"Jim Macklin" > writes:
> You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or not] is
> flying if you are a CFI.
> James H. Macklin
> ATP,CFI,A&P

The relevent FARs do not make reference to "flying" nor
to "unlicensed" "pilots". They refer to people posessing
various certificates and to people who are manipulating
controls or not. They make no reference to passengers
who happen to be manipulating the controls.

His dog can legally "fly" the plane.

As long as your student holds a recreational, sport, private
or commercial certificate. On a student certificate no
passengers may be carried. I know this is obvious, but you
said "student" twice, I thought I'd clarify for the other
readers.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Christopher C. Stacy" > wrote in
message ...
| "Doug" > writes:
| > One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a
friend fly his plane.
| > Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the plane
has dual controls,
| > his friend is an adult, but no license.
| >
| > Anyone know for sure?
|
| His friend could be a golden retriever without a license
| and it would still be legal. Dual controls are only
required if
| your friend is a CFI and the dog is receiving flight
instruction.
|
|
|

But then nobody logs the flight.



"Christopher C. Stacy" > wrote in
message ...
| "Jim Macklin" >
writes:
| > You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or
not] is
| > flying if you are a CFI.
| > James H. Macklin
| > ATP,CFI,A&P
|
| The relevent FARs do not make reference to "flying" nor
| to "unlicensed" "pilots". They refer to people posessing
| various certificates and to people who are manipulating
| controls or not. They make no reference to passengers
| who happen to be manipulating the controls.
|
| His dog can legally "fly" the plane.
|

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in
news:4USCg.930$SZ3.214@dukeread04:

> But then nobody logs the flight.
>
His dog does? :-)

--

> But then nobody logs the flight.

I disagree. The passenger flying is an organic autopilot.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jim Macklin" > writes:
> But then nobody logs the flight.

Bull****.

>> One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a friend fly his plane.
>> Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the plane has dual controls,

The part about dual controls caught my eye. Does it matter? Is it a
problem if my wife and I take dual with an instructor (as PIC) in back?

--kyler

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:40:01 -0400, Kyler Laird
> wrote:

>>> One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a friend fly his plane.
>>> Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the plane has dual controls,
>
>The part about dual controls caught my eye. Does it matter? Is it a
>problem if my wife and I take dual with an instructor (as PIC) in back?

I'm licensed and instrument rated. I often let 8 and 10 year old
kids fly the Debonair and with less coaching than many Cherokee and
Cessna pilots they do right well. I can set back and watch the
scenery and it is quite safe as long as I keep an eye on things.

As I am instrument rated they can (if we are on a instrument flight
plan) fly it through the clouds. Again, if I'm on my toes it can be
done both legally and safely. (It's my ticket and we will maintain
altitude and heading<G>) However I'd advise against taking some one
into the clouds on their first or even second ride unless you like to
clean upholstery and enjoy that genuine airliner aroma on a hot day.

Some one must be up front who can legally serve as PIC. That excludes
students. They are responsible for the flight even if they only talk
the person in the right seat through the flight.
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


>--kyler
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

> Some one must be up front who can legally serve as PIC.

Other than 91.13, where does it say that?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Roger,

> Some one must be up front who can legally serve as PIC.
>

Where does it say they have to be up front? They could be in the
baggage compartment.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

§ 91.105 Flight crewmembers at stations.
(a) During takeoff and landing, and while en route, each
required flight crewmember shall-

(1) Be at the crewmember station unless the absence is
necessary to perform duties in connection with the operation
of the aircraft or in connection with physiological needs;
and

(2) Keep the safety belt fastened while at the crewmember
station.

(b) Each required flight crewmember of a U.S.-registered
civil aircraft shall, during takeoff and landing, keep his
or her shoulder harness fastened while at his or her
assigned duty station. This paragraph does not apply if-

(1) The seat at the crewmember's station is not equipped
with a shoulder harness; or

(2) The crewmember would be unable to perform required
duties with the shoulder harness fastened.

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34294, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by
Amdt. 91-231, 57 FR 42671, Sept. 15, 1992]

A flight instructor is not a required flight crew member and
is not requird to have a medical certificate while
instructing. The FAA position is that an instructor is a
teacher. THus, if one or more people are at the flight
controls and one of them is fully qualified to be PIC, that
person must comply with 91.105.

§ 91.109 Flight instruction; Simulated instrument flight
and certain flight tests.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft (except a manned
free balloon) that is being used for flight instruction
unless that aircraft has fully functioning dual controls.
However, instrument flight instruction may be given in a
single-engine airplane equipped with a single, functioning
throwover control wheel in place of fixed, dual controls of
the elevator and ailerons when-

(1) The instructor has determined that the flight can be
conducted safely; and

(2) The person manipulating the controls has at least a
private pilot certificate with appropriate category and
class ratings.

(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated
instrument flight unless-

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who
possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category
and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

(2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each
side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the
aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety
pilot; and

(3) Except in the case of lighter-than-air aircraft, that
aircraft is equipped with fully functioning dual controls.
However, simulated instrument flight may be conducted in a
single-engine airplane, equipped with a single, functioning,
throwover control wheel, in place of fixed, dual controls of
the elevator and ailerons, when-

(i) The safety pilot has determined that the flight can be
conducted safely; and

(ii) The person manipulating the controls has at least a
private pilot certificate with appropriate category and
class ratings.

(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft that is being
used for a flight test for an airline transport pilot
certificate or a class or type rating on that certificate,
or for a part 121 proficiency flight test, unless the pilot
seated at the controls, other than the pilot being checked,
is fully qualified to act as pilot in command of the
aircraft.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P


"Peter" > wrote in message
...
|
| Thomas Borchert > wrote
|
| >Where does it say they have to be up front? They could be
in the
| >baggage compartment.
|
| I think that's true (by virtue of it not being explicitly
banned) but
| I am damned if I can find a reference to it, under FAA or
anywhere
| else.

Jim Macklin wrote
> A flight instructor is not a required flight crew member and
> is not requird to have a medical certificate while
> instructing. The FAA position is that an instructor is a
> teacher.

Whoa...Jim,...Not true due to your ommisions. You forgot to mention
that your paragraph is true ONLY if the pilot receiving instruction
is already qualified to act as PIC. Otherwise, a flight instructor
certainly is a required crewmember and must posess at least a Third
Class Medical Certificate.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

Jim,

this is, for example, different in Germany, where the regs say the
pilot has to be in the "pilot seat as determined by the manufacturer,
normally the left front seat".

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

If you read the rest of my post that you snipped and
understand that I was trying NOT to write a book, but was
just pointing out where the requirement is listed that THE
pilot be certificated and IN a pilot seat with the seat belt
fastened, the answer that a CFI is a teacher is not
incorrect.

I have instructed from the back seat, with a commercial
pilot and student instructor in the right seat and a private
pilot commercial student in the left. I logged dual
instruction given for both pilots, as the CFI student got to
work with a real student working on commercial maneuvers. I
logged 100% of the flight as PIC and the "students" logged
about 50% for the time they were actually flying.

A rated pilot, with a flight review, medical and all other
endorsements is always required and in general, a CFI must
have at least a commercial pilot rating. But there is never
a requirement that the CFI be present as a CFI, only as a
pilot is required.

The pilot could be the fully rated PP or CP or even ATP
getting instruction, the CFI might also hold a current pilot
rating, but to give instruction, all that is required is a
CFI ands a CFI can log PIC time whether qualified to be PIC
or not due to medical restrictions.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 121...
| Jim Macklin wrote
| > A flight instructor is not a required flight crew member
and
| > is not requird to have a medical certificate while
| > instructing. The FAA position is that an instructor is
a
| > teacher.
|
| Whoa...Jim,...Not true due to your ommisions. You forgot
to mention
| that your paragraph is true ONLY if the pilot receiving
instruction
| is already qualified to act as PIC. Otherwise, a flight
instructor
| certainly is a required crewmember and must posess at
least a Third
| Class Medical Certificate.
|
| Bob Moore
| ATP CFI

On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:25:00 +0200, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

>this is, for example, different in Germany, where the regs say the
>pilot has to be in the "pilot seat as determined by the manufacturer,
>normally the left front seat".

Regs in Germany also do not allow any manipulation of controls by
unrated people except during dual instruction.

Tobias

wow, glad I don't live there then. I introduced two unqualified teens
to the joys of controlling a small plane last weekend. I'm not an
instructor. I think one of them may want to persue the certificate if
she can find enough money to do it.

Tobias Schnell wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:25:00 +0200, Thomas Borchert
> > wrote:
>
>
>>this is, for example, different in Germany, where the regs say the
>>pilot has to be in the "pilot seat as determined by the manufacturer,
>>normally the left front seat".
>
>
> Regs in Germany also do not allow any manipulation of controls by
> unrated people except during dual instruction.
>
> Tobias

Robert,

> wow, glad I don't live there then. I introduced two unqualified teens
> to the joys of controlling a small plane last weekend.
>

Well, as in the US, there are regs and then there are regs. Who's going
to enforce?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:49:53 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>A private or commercial pilot may only log PIC time when
>they are the sole manipulator of the controls [that includes
>the autopilot controls], it is possible that neither pilot
>can log any of the flight time. Only a CFI or an ATP [in a
>121 or 135 operation] may log PIC time when they are not
>actual operating the controls.

Your blanket statement overlooks that the private or commercial pilot may
also log PIC time if acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which
more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the
aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

So a required safety pilot, if acting as PIC for the flight, may also log
PIC time even when not the sole manipulator.

It doesn't apply in the instance cited because, as presented, only one
pilot is required for the flight.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Robert,
>
>
>>wow, glad I don't live there then. I introduced two unqualified teens
>>to the joys of controlling a small plane last weekend.
>>
>
>
> Well, as in the US, there are regs and then there are regs. Who's going
> to enforce?
>

That's true, but I'd hate to think most people consider the regs A la
carte and pick and choose which ones they want to adhere to on any given
day.

I can't see the point in a regulation such as the one in Germany,
regardless of how tough it would be to prove if it happened. I wonder
if it wasn't written with something else in mind such as "my uncle flies
for Lufthansa and he let me fly the 747 when we were over the Atlantic"
or something like that. I can't see the utility of prohibiting
"unqualified" individuals from controlling a general aviation aircraft.

> Who's going
> to enforce?

Daddy! I flew the plane! And then my sister flew the plane and I was
so scared!

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Peter wrote:
> With apologies to Thomas, Germans are more keen than most nations on
> doing things absolutely strictly "by the book", even if it doesn't
> actually make any sense.

A common misconception about Germans. Actually, we're only keen on making
rules, not necessarily on following them. It's all safe fun until somebody
crawls out of the woodwork who insists on following the rules.

To illustrate my point, a lot of state offices and big companies in Germany
are way overregulated. Things only work because rules are selectively
ignored (the technique is to guess what the rule-maker's intentions where
an then judging whether according to those intentions, the rule should be
applied). When administrative employees want to protest/strengthen their
bargaining position/whatever, they don't have to go on strike, rather,
they'll threaten "Dienst nach Vorschrift" - roughly, "work to rule", where
everybody follows the book to the letter. The result is that nothing gets
done while everybody is still working. If Germans would follow all their
rules, the country would effectively be perpetually on a general strike.

You can also do politics that way. Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg, the two
most prosperous German states, attract companies by turning a blind eye to
(smaller) tax frauds, effectively lowering the tax burden on the companies.
(They cannot actually lower those taxes because they are imposed by the
federation rather than by the states).

In my experience, it's a very good thing that Americans have much less rules
than we do, because they will actually follow all of them, to the letter,
against all common sense. It's ridiculous, really. No sophistication at
all.

> Germany recently insisted that every one of the new light jets must be
> flown by an ATPL if entering German airspace. If that is still the
> case, that will please a lot of Americans flying their new jet to
> Europe on a CPL/IR or a PPL/IR with "only" the appropriate type rating

With apologies to the FAA, I don't see why it's supposed to be a good idea
simply because the FAA allows it*. They're not infallible. And the
convenience of American pilots is not the LBA's mission.

*) I'm not saying that the idea itself is either good or bad. All I'm saying
is that simply because the FAA does or doesn't do something doesn't mean
the JAA has to follow suite.

Anno.

Jose,

> Daddy! I flew the plane! And then my sister flew the plane and I was
> so scared!
>

Uh, remember the Airbus crash in Russia a while back?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Peter,

> Germany recently insisted that every one of the new light jets must be
> flown by an ATPL if entering German airspace
>

You got a source for that?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

> Uh, remember the Airbus crash in Russia a while back?

Uh, no. I didn't know the Airbus was a GA aircraft.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
>> Uh, remember the Airbus crash in Russia a while back?
>
>
> Uh, no. I didn't know the Airbus was a GA aircraft.

He was probably flying under GA rules at the time. Here at KBIL Boeing
brings over their new aircraft all the time for various reasons. They
are part 91 when they do this.

On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:25:00 +0200, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

>Jim,
>
>this is, for example, different in Germany, where the regs say the
>pilot has to be in the "pilot seat as determined by the manufacturer,
>normally the left front seat".

In my Deb and I think most US manufactured planes the pilot may
operate from either seat with neither being designated as the pilot's
seat by the manufacturer. At least I can not find any reference other
than convention as to where the pilot sits.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

In article >,
Roger > wrote:

> In my Deb and I think most US manufactured planes the pilot may
> operate from either seat with neither being designated as the pilot's
> seat by the manufacturer. At least I can not find any reference other
> than convention as to where the pilot sits.

As the manager of my flying club once told me, "Does your pilot's
license say 'Left Seat Only'?"

Funny, my flying clubs rule states that the "pilot" sit in the left
seat. Not to say that during a wings phase the CFI and the "student"
swap seats to see how it is to fly from the right seat. The club rules
also prohibit landing on grass strips but when we learned soft field
landing techniques we practiced on a grass strip.

john smith wrote:
> In article >,
> Roger > wrote:
>
>
>>In my Deb and I think most US manufactured planes the pilot may
>>operate from either seat with neither being designated as the pilot's
>>seat by the manufacturer. At least I can not find any reference other
>>than convention as to where the pilot sits.
>
>
> As the manager of my flying club once told me, "Does your pilot's
> license say 'Left Seat Only'?"

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:27:31 GMT, Robert Chambers
> wrote:

>Funny, my flying clubs rule states that the "pilot" sit in the left
>seat.

But that is the "club rules". Among the reasons it's probably there is
to keep memebers from giving lessons to friends and relatives in the
club's airplanes.



> Not to say that during a wings phase the CFI and the "student"
>swap seats to see how it is to fly from the right seat. The club rules
>also prohibit landing on grass strips but when we learned soft field
>landing techniques we practiced on a grass strip.
>
>john smith wrote:
>> In article >,
>> Roger > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In my Deb and I think most US manufactured planes the pilot may
>>>operate from either seat with neither being designated as the pilot's
>>>seat by the manufacturer. At least I can not find any reference other
>>>than convention as to where the pilot sits.
>>
>>
>> As the manager of my flying club once told me, "Does your pilot's
>> license say 'Left Seat Only'?"
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com